Im Trying
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" Chillin-Out " One Day At A Time !
Posts: 143
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Post by Im Trying on Feb 12, 2014 2:05:45 GMT -5
Well, just when you think you have seen and heard it all, BAM another first; SLR's BODs Decision Back-Fires, Let The Chips Fall... I got a 4 pg. letter from SLR's Attorneys. RE: Response to Owner Correspondence
Allegation1: The complex dual ballot proposal to ratify one of TWO alternate proposed budgets is confusing and is not in accordance with our [Association's] Bylaws, which requires a proposed budget (as amended) to members for ratification.
Response: The attorneys made statements about Fl. Statues and SLR's Bylaws. And On & On & More of the Same. Then the Boom!!! (Quote:) "Thus, pursuant to a strict reading of both Article VII, Section 4, of the Bylaws and Section 720.303(6), Fl. Statues, the Board did not adopt one budget and submit it to the membership for ratification. Instead, the Board proposed two alternative budgets and essentially took a poll of the membership.
In order to remedy this matter and strictly comply with the Associations governing document, and Fl. Statues, the Board should adopt a budget, and then summit the final budget for ratification by the membership. ( The Board can take into consideration the Polling results received from the membership in determining which Budget to adopt.)" (end quote)
This is the Craziest Thing To Date Our BOD has done, the Board did not listen to their Attorneys Advice, to hold off on the XX-Nxxxxxx Proposal for Resort Wide Internet Services. So being in a hurry to meet the printing dead-line, the Board went against SLR's Attorneys advice.
I have to agree with one resident that stated at a meeting: "This is The Very Best BODs, we have even had in SLR. What the resident's shout-out did't mention is: This is The Very Best BOD's to Screw-Up Things !!!
This BOD is Dumbing Down, A Little Each Day!!! You Can Not Make This Crap-Up.... So Look For Your Ballot # 2 in Next Weeks Mail, The Poll had A Log Jam !!!
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Post by Admin on Feb 12, 2014 9:24:24 GMT -5
Here is the portion of the 4-page letter response from SLohA attorney: 111 N. Orange Ave., Suite 2000 P.O. Box 2873 Orlando, Florida 32802-2873 Phone (407) 425-9566 Fax (407) 425-9596 February 10, 2014 William E. Riceman Jr. Partner wRiceman@orlandolaw.net Via email stambaughinc@verizon.net Board of Directors S-bag Lake Owners Association, Inc. c/o Toneesha Shrodr, Executive Administrator Sxxxxxxxx Ixx, Inc. RE: Response to Owner Correspondence Dear Board of Directors and Toneesha, Per your request, we have reviewed the two letters from Lot Owners that the Board provided to our office. The letters express the Owners' concerns relating to balloting and assessments for internet services. The specific letters are attached for reference purposes. Please find our office's responses to each allegation contained in the letters. 1. Response to the January 20,2014 Letter to SLohA Board of Directors and Sxxxxxxxx Ixx, from James & Jew-D Ath (5099 S-bag Lake Road). Allegation I: "The complex dual ballot proposal to ratify one of TWO alternate proposed budgets is confusing and is not in accordance with our [Association's] Bylaws, which require a proposed budget (as amended ) to members for ratification." Response: Article VII, Section 4. of the Bylaws provides: The Board of Directors sH all adopt a budget each year for the following fiscal year, which sH all contain estimates of the costs of operating and maintaining the corporation, including the following terms: a. General expenses to be incurred in connection with the operation of the properties owned by the corporation. b. Capital Expenditures (major replacements, additions, and new facilities). c. A breakdown showing proposed assessments against each owner for the above purpose. Copies of the proposed budget and assessments sH all be transmitted to each member on or before December 20, of the year for which the budget is made. If the budget is subsequently amended, before or after the assessments are made, a copy of the amended budget sH all be furnished to each member concerned The proposed budget and any amendments thereto sH all be subject to ratification by members at the annual or a special meeting of members. The express language of the provisions provides a two step process: (1) that a budget sH all be prepared and adopted by the Board; and (2) the budget sH all be submitted to the membership for ratification. However, there is no definition as to what ratification includes, and what percentage of the membership is needed to "ratify" the budget. The "ratification" provision was adopted in the 1972 Amendment to the Bylaws, and has remained since (even through the 2003 Amendment). Note the original provisions of Article VII, Section 5, did not require ratification of the membership. There is no reference or defined term of ratification within the 1972 Amendment. We understand that the Board did propose a budget, and submitted it for review and ratification by the membership. The proposed budget included an increase in assessments to further carry out the responsibilities, maintenance and operation of the Association in its current state. However, the Board also submitted an alternative proposed budget to the membership, which included an increase in assessments (as provided above), and also an escalation in assessments to cover the proposed costs incurred by the Association to provide internet service throughout the Association. (As is explained in further detail below, pursuant to Chapter 720, Florida Statutes, such internet service costs can be included within the operating costs of the Association and can be assessed to all members on a per-parcel basis.) Section 720.303(6), Florida Statutes, provides that the Association sH all prepare an annual budget that sets out the annual operating expenses. Thus, pursuant to a strict reading of both Article VII, Section 4, of the Bylaws and Section 720.303(6), Florida Statutes, the Board did not adopt one budget and submit it to the membership for ratification. Instead, the Board proposed two alternative budgets and essentially took a poll of the membership. In order to remedy this matter and strictly comply with the Association's governing documents, and Florida Statutes, the Board should adopt a budget, and then submit the final budget for ratification by the membership. (The Board can take into consideration the polling results received from the membership in determining which budget to adopt.) Ft. Lauderdale (954) 670-1979 • Kissimmee (321) 402-0144 • Cocoa (866) 425-9566 Website: www.orlandolaw.net • Email: firm@orlandolaw.net
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Post by Admin on Feb 12, 2014 9:37:48 GMT -5
Good catch on attorney's part; there is no provision that defines "ratification". There is only past history which is regrettable because when there is absence of direction, it causes associations to make it up as they go and "let the chips fall". SLohA has embraced that in almost every aspect of governance. The history has been to treat ratification as a "majority" like the election of directors. This actually makes sense to me but it is definately just another problem with our documents that encourages boards to do their own thing.
Now the other part--I do not know what they are referring to as the "1972 Amendment" and "1972 Amendment to the Bylaws". I did validate the reference to the 2003 Amendment to the Bylaws.) Perplexed at these 1972 references! According to what I have found in the public records, the only document recorded is the original 1972 Unit 1 recordation which is NOT an Amendment--it is THE Declaration of the Covenants.
Here is a screenshot of ALL the documents with the name "S-bag" recorded during the entire year 1972. I have highlighted S-bag that applies to SLohA. You can see that there is only one document of a type "Restriction" (RESTR) and all the other docs are Deeds and Easements:
Name Cross Name Date Type Book Type Book Page Instr# Status Legal #Pages S-bag LAKE RESORTS INC ALICO LAND DEVELOPMENT CO 12/9/1971 DEED O 1405 179 V SE 1/4 ETC 2 S-bag LAKE RESORTS INC ALCOMA ASSN INC 2/25/1972 DEED O 1423 630 V PT SW 1/4 1 * S-bag LAKE UNIT 1 IN RE RESTRICTIONS 3/14/1972 RESTR O 1428 149 V 7 S-bag LAKE RESORTS INC BELL MADISON 5/22/1972 DEED O 1447 197 V PT HESPERIDES IN THE PINES 1 S-bag LAKE RESORTS INC DIXON EXR Chrls E 6/5/1972 DEED O 1451 270 V PT ANNEX HESPERIDES PINES 1 S-bag LAKE RESORTS INC GREENE III EXR WH 6/5/1972 DEED O 1451 271 V PT ANNEX HESPERIDES IN THE PINES 2 S-bag LAKE RESORTS INC DIXON JR WILLIAM S 6/6/1972 DEED O 1451 644 V PT ANNEX HESPERIDES IN THE PINES 1 S-bag LAKE RESORTS INC SEABOARD COAST LINE RR CO 6/13/1972 DEED O 1453 934 V PT NE 1/4 8 S-bag LAKE RESORTS INC ALICO LAND DEV CO 10/6/1972 DEED O 1485 527 V W 1/2 E 1/2 SW 1/4 2 * S-bag LAKE RESORTS INC GULF RIDGE COUNCIL BOY SCOUTS AMERICA INC 10/6/1972 EAS O 1485 531 V PT SW 1/4 2 * S-bag LAKE RESORTS INC FLA POWER CORP 11/1/1972 EAS O 1492 792 V PT HESPERIDES TR A 2 * S-bag LAKE RESORTS INC FLA POWER CORP 12/7/1972 EAS O 1503 280 V PT SE 1/4 2 * S-bag LAKE RESORTS INC FLA POWER CORP 12/7/1972 EAS O 1503 282 V PT SW 1/4 1
The only thing I could find in the statutes that "speaks sideways" to the input of members into an aspect of the financials is with regard to the section describing Members' changing the level of financial accounting:
(c) ...If 20 percent of the parcel owners petition the board for a level of financial reporting higher than that required by this section, the association sH all duly notice and hold a meeting of members within 30 days of receipt of the petition for the purpose of voting on raising the level of reporting for that fiscal year. Upon approval of a majority of the total voting interests of the parcel owners, the association sH all prepare or cause to be prepared, sH all amend the budget or adopt a special assessment...
The 720 statute might trump whatever our governing documents said--but we have nothing in our governing documents that say anything about ratification of the budget. If I were queen, I would base the "ratification of the budget" on the above statute and instruct the Rules Committee to fix it on the next balloting year...
(Note: If and when Electronic Balloting for SLohA is adopted, changes like these would be nearly "instantaneous" and quite inexpensive. KL is focusing on the WRONG things for SLohA. Members must ask "Why?" Our documents are a Hot Mess! They need to be thoroughly vetted and fixed or revitalized and fixed (depending on the Declaratory Judgement with regard to covenants expiration). They have been carelessly recorded--some without benefit of proper balloting-- and need a lot of attention. Why is KL so fixated and in a near-panic about assessing Members' for the benefit of K C? Why does he take the bully pulpit at every meeting and permits propaganda about non-business matters when SLohA has such critical governance problems?)
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Post by Admin on Feb 12, 2014 14:15:09 GMT -5
Here is the remainder of the 4 page letter from SLohA attorney. There has been much written already about this issue and the attorney has not given it the depth that will need to be paid in the future. This is sort of the "Tell 'em this and they'll probably give up and go away" response. I'll post some more comments later when owners' attorneys have weighed in.
Allegation 2: "The content of the budget ratification item unlawfully purposes to levy an assessment upon parcels which is not in accordance with the powers and duty of the board, i.e., to propose a budget necessary to manage expenses in connection 'with the operation of the properties OWNED by the Corporation."
Response: As we provided to the Board in our January 30, 2014 letter, Section 720.309, Florida Statutes, specifically authorizes an Association to contract and provide for interne service, pursuant to a bulk service contract, as such costs can be deemed an operating expense of the Association to be allocated on a per-parcel basis. Specifically:
(2) If the governing documents provide for the cost of communications services as defined in s. 202.11, information services or Internet services obtained pursuant to a bulk contract sH all be deemed an operating expense of the association. If the governing documents do not provide for such services, the board may contract for the services, and the cost sH all be deemed an operating expense of the association but must be allocated on a per-parcel basis rather than a percentage basis notwithstanding that the governing documents provide for other than an equal sharing of operating expenses. Any contract entered into before July 1, 2011, in which the cost of the service is not equally divided among all parcel owners may be changed by a majority of the voting interests present at a regular or special meeting of the association in order to allocate the cost equally among all parcels.
Section 720.309(2), Florida Statutes (emphasis added).
Therefore, the Association does have the legal authority to contract and provide for Internet service, and any such costs will be a part of the Association's operating expenses, which sH all be paid through the funds collected by member assessments.
Allegation 3: "SLohA proposes to unlawfully distribute to one of its members, revenue received from other members, contrary to Articles of Incorporation, Article X and FS617."
Response: Our office in unaware of any information provided to the Association's members purporting to distribute revenues received to a certain member of the Association. However, we can only assume that the Homeowner is referring to the hypothetical scenario of an Association member's business providing service to the Association and the member's business receiving payment for such services. While Section 617.0505, Florida Statutes, does prohibit a corporation from making distributions to its members, directors or officers, Section 617.0505(2), Florida Statutes, expressly authorizes a corporation to pay compensation in a reasonable amount to its members for services rendered. See Section 617.0505(2), Florida Statutes, copy attached. (Article X of the Association's Articles of Incorporation mirrors this statutory provision and the same analysis applies.)
Further, while payment for services to a member may be authorized, the scenario as contemplated is not of the like, as payment would not be to the individual member, but rather a corporation providing service to the Association.
Allegation 4: Confusion of the ballot in that there is no option for the "owners who FAVOR the internet part and wish to reject the proposed Budget do not have a choice to vote accordingly, thereby corrupting the budget choice and forcing the budget approval on the basis of desire for an interne fee option."
Response: There is no express provision in any of the Association's governing documents which would require the Board of Directors to submit all possible budget scenarios to the membership for vote and ratification. The Board is acting within its powers if desires to only offer two options for vote of the membership versus three or four options. Interestingly, the Homeowners' argument is in direct conflict with Allegation 1, in which the Homeowners allege that the Board cannot provide more than one option for ratification.
Miscellaneous Allegations: (1.) Absence of underlying authority to amend Declaration and assuming false authority to make changes to Covenants; (2.) Substantive mistakes in the text of previously-disseminated information about the proposed change on voting thresholds (numerical representations false; (3.) Unlawful addition of NEW provisions in the Covenants misrepresented as a change (liens and mortgage foreclosures); (4.) Attempt to 'change' language which serves to impair the contract rights of members regarding commercial activity; (5.) Absence of full text of proposed Rules & Regulations and Covenants on the Ballot itself:
Response: At this time, our office is unable to respond to the aforementioned miscellaneous allegations due to the incoherent nature of the allegations. We have been provided no basis for the "unlawful or inappropriate act of the Association." We can research these allegations if further specific information can be provided of what action (or omission) was taken and what legal authority was breached.
2. Response to the January 28, 2014 Letter to SLohA Board of Directors and Sxxxxxxxx Ixx, from James & Carol Grnt (36 S-bag Trail North)
Allegation 1: The Association did not conduct its corporate business in a lawful manner, as set forth in the governing documents, with regard to a proposed assessments on parcels for internet service.
Response: As set forth above, Section 720.309(2), Florida Statutes, provides the Association with the legal authority to contract and provide for internet service to the Association and assess such costs as part of the Association's operating expenses, to be paid through member assessments. The allegation is misplaced.
Allegation 2: Violation of the Association's Standard Operating Procedures ("SOP"), i.e., Board sH all respond within thirty (30) days of receipt of correspondence.
Response: Our office does not have a copy of the Association's SOP; however, we will need to review the exact protocol for requests for response from the Board. Is the Board required to provide written responsive correspondence to the request? Or, can the Board address the correspondence at a meeting of the Board? Our office has been informed that the Board did advise the Association membership that the Board's attorneys were reviewing the correspondence. Please provide copies of the Association's SOP for our review if the Board desires our response to this allegation. Or, this issue may be moot pending this response.
Should the Board desire for our office to address the specific homeowners' concerns and respond to the letters that were provided to our office individually, on behalf of the Board, please let us know. Otherwise, this correspondence can serve as a general response to the letters which have been provided to our office for review. We are privileged to continue to represent the Association in this matter. Should the Board desire further correspondence from our office, or to set a telephone conference with regard to this matter, please let us know.
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Post by BagLady on Feb 13, 2014 8:28:19 GMT -5
From the 4 page letter sent to owners: This is the same drum they plan to beat and TWO attorneys have stated that this action is "unconstitutional". There is recent case law on this i.e. Cohn v Grand Condo. While that decision recognizes that, in general, statutes trump governing documents, that is only true in certain instances. Statutes CANNOT take or diminish contractual rights unless this has been agreed upon, in advance, by all parties to the contract. The right to be free of future legislative changes "as amended from time to time" is what all owners signed on for. This is a somewhat complex issue that has been discussed on this forum in some depth in the past but the gist of "changes to statutes" with regard to the superiority of documents ("trumping") hinges on at least two important rights ie "private vs public rights" and "contract law". To review:
Contract: Our Covenants, Articles of Incorporation, Bylaws and Rules comprise the "contract" entered into by Owners when properties were sold in the 70's. These rights and obligations "run with the land" i.e. no matter who owns the property in future sales, the rights and obligations are attached to the property. Property rights are considered sacred in our society; they are vigorously protected by our judicial system and cannot be easily "taken" or "diminished" by government except under very special conditions.
SLohA was incorporated under statute FS 617 in the 70's; at that time FS720 did not exist. The Legislature split 617 into a second statute in 2000 so that there would be a separate chapter for mandatory homeowners associations--split off from the provisions for non-profit corporations. SLohA is a non-profit corporation and is currently governed by BOTH 617 and 720. In case of a conflict of provisions, SLohA will be governed by FS720. ("Conflict" does not mean "difference"; it means that the same provision exists in BOTH statutes but are different enough to form a "conflict" or a competing version of the same thing. This can happen when legislative changes are made to one statute but are not carried over and incorporated into the "sister" statute until it becomes a problem.)
Our Articles of Incorporation did not provide for an intention to be governed by future legislative changes with the legal language of intent i.e. "as amended from time to time". Had that language (aka "Kaufmann language") been included in our governing documents, SLohA would be subject to all changes in FS720 and SLohA would have the authority described in FS720.309 and which SLohA wants to now assert. As it happens, FS720.309 has only provision #1 in common with FS617.309. That provision concerned the Developer's duties and was effectively "moot" following turnover of the subdivision to the homeowners. In effect, 720.309 does not apply to SLohA and is a non-issue, except that SLohA would like you to believe it is their authority to do what they want to do.
(Note: This legal struggle will come up again; a similar situation exists with the Rules/Violations intention of MANBOD. Because SLohA documents are "fixed" to the provisions in effect at the time of incorporation in 1972, the legislation enacted in 2012 regarding the Fines & Violations does not apply, for the same reason--i.e. owners did not agree to be subject to future legislative changes and agreed to freedom from Compliance Patrols and Fines. This is a material, vested property right--a substantive contractual provision).
Public Good: The other consideration of "trumping" by statutes concerns the public versus private good. Above was discussion of "private good"; these are also called "substantive rights". They are contractual property rights--material and concern your right to use and dispose of your property as represented and agreed by all parties. The other side of the face is the "public good". These are also called "procedural rights" and changes to these do not affect owners' property rights. These are legislative changes that are made for reasons of "public good" and are remedial and curative in nature. For instances, the legislature has been known to make bad laws and badly-written laws. When that happens, or when society's needs change e.g. electronic communications versus certified mail for notices, the Legislature has to amend the provisions to fix their error or account for the new reality of business communications (using the example above).
This kind of change, which is procedural in nature and in the public domain, DOES trump SLohA documents. An example would be the frequent changes in the section on Official Records Inspection--a substantive right that is often perverted by perversive Associations trying to keep records from owners. The Legislature frequently changes the procedure to inspect records to protect the underlying property right. The change itself is procedural and expands and serves the public good by protecting the substantive property right. It is not always a slam-dunk to distinguish the difference between "substantive" change and "procedural" change. Sometimes, one needs to go back to the original bill discussed in legislative committees to determine what problem they were addressing--the intent of the legislative change.
However, in my opinion, the current issue facing SLohA is not a gray area; the changes being rammed down owners' throats, under the cloak of FS720.309, is substantive in quality and owners are being abused by a regime that has an agenda contrary to the benefit of the owners. It is trying to "sell" members on the authority for them to act based on a statute that does not apply to SLohA.
Going full circle, the case law coming out of Cohn v Grand Condo reaffirmed that vested property rights cannot be usurped by Legislation and this was UNCONSTITUTIONAL unless previously agreed by all parties to the contract. As a side note, this was a very upsetting decision (near-panic) for Legislators and for the "players" in the profitable industry of property management, association legal firms and service providers.
Here is a summary of the 2011 decision:
This refers to 718 which is the condo statute; it is regarded as applying equally to 719, 720 and 721.
So there is much more involved here than the simple-minded parroting of the statute that has been the totality of the response by SLohA.
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney; the above is provided for educational purposes and should not be relied upon. If you need to take any action, you should seek the advice of an attorney. I know two good ones...
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Post by Guest on Feb 13, 2014 8:56:33 GMT -5
so the way I read this below is that WE have been lied to AGAIN ?
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Post by BagLady on Feb 13, 2014 9:34:49 GMT -5
The duck test is a humorous term for a form of inductive reasoning. This is its usual expression:
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
The test implies that a person can identify an unknown subject by observing that subject's habitual characteristics. It is sometimes used to counter abstruse arguments that something is not what it appears to be.
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Anonymous Environmentalist
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Post by Anonymous Environmentalist on Feb 13, 2014 20:02:01 GMT -5
so the way I read this below is that WE have been lied to AGAIN ? we're lied to more than you know...
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Post by BagLady on Feb 14, 2014 7:32:00 GMT -5
From the 4-page letter from SLohA attorney:
The prohibition is a limiting one to prevent a not-for-profit corporation from engaging in financial activities that slide it over into the "profit" side of business. When it does, it loses it tax-exempt status and is now bound by another statute and must re-do its Articles and other things. The subsections and exclusions permitting distribution of revenue (payment) are Very Few and involve distributions to mutual-benefit corps (private clubs), charitable organizations, other non-profits and governmental entities. The more concerning and expanded exclusion is for distribution upon dissolution of the corporation.
The statute also permits board members to receive monies for certain services provided to the corporation, but that is also subject to approval and DISCLOSURE requirements under 617.0832 Director Conflict of Interest. The examples given of such services are "landscaping"; services of a nature that serve the legitimate purposes of the corporation. Attorney gives an incredulous interpretation of the statute. Importantly, levying of an assessment on parcels for a service that is not related to the maintenance of operation of SLohA-owned property is not a legitimate purpose of the corporation, therefore, distribution of the revenue generated from such unlawful conduct is "fruit of the poisoned tree".
The attorney further tries to please BOD by asking owners to believe:
This has superficial appeal but is simply not true. K C Nxxxxxx is owned and operated by members of the corporation. Paying a for-profit corporation is paying the members of a not-for-profit. The above is obviously an effort to sidestep and hide behind the veil of corporate organization (which of course is one of the purposes of corporations). The Attorney General's Office, in its Advisory Opinion about a similar tactic writes:
(There are two case laws cited which I won't cite here.)
There are probably better counters to this argument but frankly, no attorneys were asked about it so I am winging it. I think everyone can "see through" the weak position of the SLohA attorney regarding unlawful distribution of revenue to members of the corporation. Basically, the law was specifically set up to prevent income of not-for-profit corporation from being distributed except in extremely limited circumstances.
SLohA has a very unusual condition with the presence of K C unlawfully sited on our common property in violation of our governing documents. There is nothing that flows from that first act of violation that can be lawful. Owners also suffer from obvious collusion of other interests in and perhaps outside of SLohA that are exerting pressures to continue and expand unlawful acts arising from the original violation of establishing a commercial enterprise on Members' common property, contrary to the Covenants. IMO, this situation transcends the strict reading of related corporate and homeowner statutes and will likely require litigation to resolve.
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and the above is for informational purposes and should not be relied on. If you need to act, you should seek the services of a licensed attorney.
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Post by Admin on Feb 15, 2014 6:53:54 GMT -5
As a point of note, the attorneys are not the only ones that say what SLohA is doing is unconstitutional, the Florida Constitution prohibits the enactment of any “law impairing the obligation of contracts.”:
Further, the Florida statutes state that enactment of legislation is "not intended to impair such contract rights":
It seems like the only ones who want to take away owners' rights are...BOD.
“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men (and women) do nothing.” Edmond Burke
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